Recently a discussion developed over at the New City Church blog about a paragraph in my book. Here’s the paragraph in question:

Even though musicians aren’t necessarily “elders” or “teachers” their presence in front of the congregation week after week implies that their life is worthy of emulation—not flawless, but demonstrating the fruit of the gospel. When that’s not true, the church gets the message that worship is more about music than the way we live. Likewise, when non-Christian musicians are used, we’re implying that the art of worship is more important than the heart. (p. 230)

The comments focused around the topic of using non-Christians on a worship team. Here’s how I responded to the discussion and questions about what I meant by my original paragraph:

I remember very clearly writing that paragraph of the book. I thought that people would take issue with it. Allow me to explain what I was saying, and hopefully answer some of the comments here.

First, I’m not saying that God doesn’t use or speak through non-Christians or art produced by unbelievers. He obviously does.

Second, I think those with a public ministry (however you define it) in the church should be held to a higher standard of conduct that those who serve more behind the scenes. The reason is that they’re more visible and more prone to be critiqued or seen as an example. So someone who sets up chairs or wraps wires might be working through significant character issues but still be able to serve. The more pronounced the leadership role or visibility in the church, the more concerned we should be about whether or not a person’s life is in line with the Gospel.

Third, I understand that churches invite non-Christians to play in their meetings for reasons other than simply making better music, usually evangelism. I’ve known non-Christians who have been converted as a result of playing for a church. But in the above paragraph I was mostly thinking of situations where churches are more concerned about the sound of the music than the nature of the church.

Which brings me to the reason I wrote what I did. The key issue for me is who is gathering on Sunday morning. If what we’re engaged in is a media production, drawing a crowd, or a motivational event, then it’s not as important who does what. But if we are the gathering of the church, the called out ones, those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed by his blood, who have professed faith in his substitutionary sacrifice, and are seeking to live for his glory, then it matters. In talking about the church Acts 5:13-14Acts 5:13-14 [13]None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. [14]And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, (ESV)

This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

says, “None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.” I’d say that we’ve come a long way from “none of the rest dared join them” when we’re inviting non-Christians to be involved in leading/serving roles in the church. We may see people saved in the short run, but there are certainly other ways that can happen that don’t blur the distinction between the church and the world.

One last thought. It’s true that things always go better when pastors explain the qualifications for serving in different roles. But it seems that the emphasis in Scripture is always on leaders and Christians being examples ( Heb. 13:7Hebrews 13:7 [7]Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. (ESV)

This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

; 1 Tim. 4:121 Timothy 4:12 [12]Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. (ESV)

This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

; 1 Pet. 2:121 Peter 2:12 [12]Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation. (ESV)

This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

) and the church being made up of those who have repented of their sins and trusted in Christ for salvation.

In our sincere desire for the church to be a community where non-Christians feel welcome and see the gospel in action we can blur the distinction between those who are owned by Christ and those who aren’t, between those who have trusted in Christ and those who haven’t, between those who live for the kingdom of light and those who live for the kingdom of darkness. If that sounds polarizing, it’s because that’s the way God describes our position - inside or outside of Christ ( Rom. 12:4-5Romans 12:4-5 [4]For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, [5]so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. (ESV)

Christians are those who have been reconciled, redeemed, restored, and made right with the Father. We gather as his people to celebrate and remember the grace we’ve received in Christ. Unbelievers are welcome to come and observe our common bond in the gospel, and hopefully be affected by it. That’s always our prayer.

But for the sake of the Gospel and the purity of the church let’s encourage them to put their trust in the Savior through our example, witness, speech, love, and proclamation—not by asking them to participate in worship that is only possible through the regenerating work of the Spirit. We don’t want to potentially lead them and the church to believe they’re already part of the redeemed community before they’ve been redeemed.

46 Comments »

1. Mixed feelings on this one. One one hand, I see your point and can appreciate it as a Christian. However, I also know that one of the factors leading to my salvation was being included in our praise orchestra at the church I attended as a seeker. Without that, I would have had little reason to keep attending and hear/accept the gospel message. I would not have been around the Christians there long enough to really grow towards accepting Jesus.

   Now there were no illusions that I was a church member or even a believer. People still talked with me about becoming a Christian and witnessed to me. My musical abilities were able to bless someone else even though I did not have a saving relationship with God.

   At least for our purposes, including me was evangelism. Our orchestra leader was and is a devout Christian (and extremely talented). Everyone else in the orchestra was a Christian. I made no pretense of being a Christian, but merely exploring and was clear about that with people in and out of the church. So in our case, the purpose was definitely evangelism and not to sound better. I would agree that including someone in the worship ministry merely to sound better just isn’t quite right. To witness and minister to them as a primary focus - that’s cool. Just for appealing to people doesn’t strike me as a good reason and I think we agree on that.

   Your last paragraph definitely fits the people with whom I served. They witnessed to and loved me, but did not pretend that I was redeemed when I was not. (And believe me, they tried a whole bunch to convince me to accept Jesus and were NOT subtle about it. Thank you to anyone from Parkminster Pres who was part of my time there and is reading this.)

   Comment by Peter — May 22, 2008 @ 7:05 pm

2. I agree with your stance on not allowing non-Christians to play in a worship band. I have serious questions on whether or not a non-Christian can even worship Christ. This is also why I have a problem with seeker sensitive worship. Worship should consist of believers offering themselves up to Christ. Evangelism is extremely important, don’t get me wrong. But worship is for those that know Christ, to give back to Christ.

   Comment by Danny — May 22, 2008 @ 8:58 pm

3. Peter,

   Praise God that God used a loving, faithful church to lead you to a saving knowledge of Christ! And thanks for responding so thoughtfully to my post. I know this can be a volatile issue.

   Like I said in the post, though, the issue isn’t whether or not folks can get saved by playing on a music team. It’s the long term effect on knowing who makes up the church. Having non-Christians serve as an integral part of the Sunday gathering leads to confusion in the long run, and potentially a compromise of the church itself.

   Comment by Bob Kauflin — May 22, 2008 @ 10:11 pm

4. Worship is a response to the work of redemption and the revealed glory of God through Christ. People who have not experienced the work of Brahms or Picasso can’t celebrate their creativity and certainly would never be called upon to lead/ instruct others in the pursuit. Could evangelicals invade the local pubs and bars, set a musical standard so excellent, that the great art compels every listener to the saving beauty of Christ? Less poison the well, more salt the earth…

   Comment by Carl C. — May 22, 2008 @ 10:22 pm

5. I agree.

   I think the confusion that can be caused in this area can sometimes most easily be seen when looking at people who are either new to the church, visitors, or new believers. Repeatedly I’ve been incorrectly referenced by new people at our church as “one of the pastors” or as “Pastor Tim” because of my role as the leader of the music portion of worship on a Sunday morning. Questions about church missiology, methodology, and doctrine frequently come to the music team because of our roles. It is assumed by people new to the church that those who are participating in a leadership role - whether musical or otherwise - during a Sunday morning service represent the church and it’s beliefs. It makes sense, on both spiritual health and a practical church leadership levels, to ensure, to the best of our ability, that the members of the team have experienced the grace of God in a saving way.

   Comment by tw shorey — May 23, 2008 @ 6:29 am

6. I completely agree. The best of intentions don’t make the actions right. The ends do not justify the means. To me this is similar to “missionary dating.” Even if I was saved as a result I would still tell others not to do it. The exceptions only only make the rule more clear.

   Comment by Don Fields — May 23, 2008 @ 8:59 am

7. I’ve kept unbelievers off our worship team BECAUSE I’m witnessing to them.

   What does (almost) every unbeliever think will earn God’s favor? Doing “good” stuff. Church stuff. I fear we feed into that mentality when we put them in front of the church.

   The Lord uses various ways to save people, and we should praise Him for the anecdotal stories of people coming to faith through upfront service. My opinion is, however, having this as a worship team policy or a evangelistic strategy to artists often undermines the gospel we are trying to communicate.

   Yes, love them. Invite them into your home. Serve THEM. But having them in situations that serve YOU or serve the CHURCH sends them a message that is confusing to the unbelieving heart and contrary to the gospel you’re trying to share.

   Comment by Matthew Westerholm — May 23, 2008 @ 9:28 am

8. Bob, great points (and outstanding book!) on this. Peter, we praise God for the way that you came to Christ, and none of this discussion assumes that God is not using believers who practice differently. Yet, to add to Bob’s discussion above, perhaps another place to look is 1 Cor 12-141 Corinthians 12-14
   [12:1]Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not
   want you to be uninformed. [2]You know that when you were
   pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were
   led. [3]Therefore I want you to understand that no one
   speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is
   accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the
   Holy Spirit.
   [4]Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same
   Spirit; [5]and there are varieties of service, but the same
   Lord; [6]and there are varieties of activities, but it is
   the same God who empowers them all in everyone. [7]To each
   is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common
   good. [8]For to one is given through the Spirit the
   utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of
   knowledge according to the same Spirit, [9]to another faith
   by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one
   Spirit, [10]to another the working of miracles, to another
   prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between
   spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another
   the interpretation of tongues. [11]All these are empowered
   by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one
   individually as he wills.
   [12]For just as the body is one and has many members,
   and all the members of the body, though many, are one body,
   so it is with Christ. [13]For in one Spirit we were all
   baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and
   all were made to drink of one Spirit.
   [14]For the body does not consist of one member but of
   many. [15]If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand,
   I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any
   less a part of the body. [16]And if the ear should say,
   "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,"
   that would not make it any less a part of the body. [17]If
   the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of
   hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the
   sense of smell? [18]But as it is, God arranged the members
   in the body, each one of them, as he chose. [19]If all were
   a single member, where would the body be? [20]As it is,
   there are many parts, yet one body.
   [21]The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of
   you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of
   you." [22]On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem
   to be weaker are indispensable, [23]and on those parts of
   the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater
   honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater
   modesty, [24]which our more presentable parts do not
   require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater
   honor to the part that lacked it, [25]that there may be no
   division in the body, but that the members may have the
   same care for one another. [26]If one member suffers, all
   suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice
   together.
   [27]Now you are the body of Christ and individually
   members of it. [28]And God has appointed in the church
   first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then
   miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating,
   and various kinds of tongues. [29]Are all apostles? Are all
   prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30]Do
   all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do
   all interpret? [31]But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
   And I will show you a still more excellent way.
   [13:1]If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels,
   but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
   [2]And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all
   mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as
   to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [3]If
   I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be
   burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
   [4]Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or
   boast; it is not arrogant [5]or rude. It does not insist on
   its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; [6]it does
   not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
   [7]Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all
   things, endures all things.
   [8]Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass
   away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it
   will pass away. [9]For we know in part and we prophesy in
   part, [10]but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass
   away. [11]When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I
   thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I
   became a man, I gave up childish ways. [12]For now we see
   in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in
   part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully
   known.
   [13]So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but
   the greatest of these is love.
   [14:1]Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual
   gifts, especially that you may prophesy. [2]For one who
   speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one
   understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
   [3]On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to
   people for their upbuilding and encouragement and
   consolation. [4]The one who speaks in a tongue builds up
   himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
   [5]Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to
   prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one
   who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that
   the church may be built up.
   [6]Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues,
   how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation
   or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? [7]If even lifeless
   instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give
   distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? [8]And
   if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready
   for battle? [9]So with yourselves, if with your tongue you
   utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know
   what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
   [10]There are doubtless many different languages in the
   world, and none is without meaning, [11]but if I do not
   know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to
   the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. [12]So with
   yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the
   Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
   [13]Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray
   for the power to interpret. [14]For if I pray in a tongue,
   my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. [15]What am I to
   do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my
   mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will
   sing with my mind also. [16]Otherwise, if you give thanks
   with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an
   outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not
   know what you are saying? [17]For you may be giving thanks
   well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
   [18]I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of
   you. [19]Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five
   words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten
   thousand words in a tongue.
   [20]Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be
   infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. [21]In the
   Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the
   lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even
   then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." [22]Thus
   tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers,
   while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for
   believers. [23]If, therefore, the whole church comes
   together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or
   unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of
   your minds? [24]But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or
   outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to
   account by all, [25]the secrets of his heart are disclosed,
   and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and
   declare that God is really among you.
   [26]What then, brothers? When you come together, each
   one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an
   interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
   [27]If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at
   most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
   [28]But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them
   keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
   [29]Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others
   weigh what is said. [30]If a revelation is made to another
   sitting there, let the first be silent. [31]For you can all
   prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be
   encouraged, [32]and the spirits of prophets are subject to
   prophets. [33]For God is not a God of confusion but of
   peace.
   As in all the churches of the saints, [34]the women
   should keep silent in the churches. For they are not
   permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law
   also says. [35]If there is anything they desire to learn,
   let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for
   a woman to speak in church.
   [36]Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are
   you the only ones it has reached? [37]If anyone thinks that
   he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that
   the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
   [38]If anyone does not recognize this, he is not
   recognized. [39]So, my brothers, earnestly desire to
   prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. [40]But
   all things should be done decently and in order. (ESV)

   This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

   , surely an important place to go when thinking of who participates on Sunday mornings and how they are to participate. One example from there illustrates what Bob is saying: “What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up” ( 1 Cor 14:261 Corinthians 14:26
   [26]What then, brothers? When you come together, each
   one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an
   interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
   (ESV)

   This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

   ). It is “brothers (and sisters)” who gather, and when “you come together,” you bring the gifts that God has given you (12:7; Eph 4:7Ephesians 4:7
   [7]But grace was given to each one of us according to
   the measure of Christ's gift. (ESV)

   This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

   ). Sundays are the place where those gathered use their gifts to worship God and edify believers. Each church has a unique set of giftings based on the people God has called to unite in that congregation. This is a cause of humility (when we wish we had other giftings or amounts) and gratitude for what he has given to us! How crucial it is to celebrate what God has brought into our church and not wish for what he hasn’t.
   –DJB

   Comment by Daniel Baker — May 23, 2008 @ 10:54 am

9. It is almost amazing to me that this discussion is even occurring. Could you imagine a time in church history when an unbeliever would have been permitted to serve in the public ministry of the church, especially that of leading God’s people in worship. Is there any doubt that the Psalmists and those who played the instrumentation for the psalms in the OT were believers? At times I believe we have thrown common sense out the door. I doubt these are issues being meted out in the church in Myanmar, Vietnam, China, etc. Only in America!

   As a pastor I see very clearly the tendency of people to “look up to” those who stand before the congregation each week. to deny this is to willfully ignore the obvious. As elders we are very careful who we put before the congregation to speak, sing, and pray because we understand that they, whether we like it or not, become the public face of our local church body.

   Last year I finished preaching through Acts and one thing was very clear throughout the book. The church was well defined. There were no blurred lines (notice how Peter confronted Simon in chapter 8).

   Here is a question to consider. If it is ok for an unbeliever to serve on the worship team is it also ok for him to help serve communion?

   Comment by Duane — May 23, 2008 @ 11:22 am

10. I played at a church where the drummer had a pretty serious drug habit, but he was a good drummer and the worship leader thought it was important to have him there. I remember first hand thinking about this sort of thing.

    I don’t think it is possible for a non-Christian to worship. It is through our relationship with Christ that we are able to say words of worship to the Triune God. Anyone can sing a song, but does it really mean anything? But that side of this is a whole different can of worms.

    I think behind the scenes work is a wonderful way to develop relationships with non-christians who are comfortable enough with to be coming to church. When I was a college minster we had plenty of non-christians helping around the building, cooking food with us, cleaning up, setting up for events-pretty much everything except for a deep involvement with leading worship. Doing work around the church with someone who is considering Christ is a great place for them to see the heart of the church and to be evangelized.

    Some people above had said that it blurs the lines with who is in the church and who is “out” of the church. I think this is correct and really important, because in so many churches now the lines involving membership are really foggy.

    Great thoughts Bob

    Comment by chad — May 23, 2008 @ 3:07 pm

11. Bob,

    It seems that that there is a fundamental difference in ecclesiology between those who advocate non-Christians on the worship team/band and those who oppose it. Are worship gatherings for believers or are they primarily for evangelism? The answer to this question, in my view, is what differentiates these two views.

    Good Christians with a heart for the lost are on the wrong side of the issue (IMO) due to a poor ecclesiology. But I can admire a zeal for the lost, even if misguided.

    Gavin

    Comment by Gavin Brown — May 23, 2008 @ 6:47 pm

12. Hey Matthew,

    I’m from the south so your comment really rings true (for the most part) here. It’s hard to share the gospel at times because everyone’s a “christian” down here. I also think it is a witness to non-Christians to make clear distinctions where necessary like serving the church in various ways, communion, etc. Thanks for the post Bob. It’s really interesting and good for me to know about the different decisions pastors and worship leaders have to make and face. I’m oblivious to many of these things and I can pray more specifically for them.

    Comment by Trillia — May 23, 2008 @ 9:46 pm

13. Great post. I definitely agree that people involved in up-front ministry are more liable for everyone to see how they live & whether their life match with what the church teaches or not. If it doesn’t match, then it’s as if the church teaches empty stuff, which is reflected in the member not living out with the gospel.

    I think my church even goes a bit further than that, we have sort of ‘unwritten policy’ that those who are serving in up-front ministry (including the music team) must be committed Christians, or at least showing progression in their understanding & growth as a Christian. This is important due to the reasons that Bob had mentioned above. As the music coordinator, at one time i even had to talk to one of our (carefully selected) music team to tell her off the team because she is going out with non-Christian. That was one of the hardest task i’ve ever done, and it was very sad. But one thing for sure, it’s actually loving for her and the rest of the team (as well as for the other congregation) that we make clear that how the team lives does matter. After all she is still my sister in Christ and we still try to speak to her lovingly in more personal conversations about her going out with non-Christian.

    On a different matter, my younger (teenage) brother is invited to a church back in my home country and is asked to help out playing music there while he is not a believer yet. I can’t say that i agree with the church policy whatsoever, but i also can’t say to my brother that he can’t play in the church because he’s not a believer yet. I can only pray to God that through him playing music in church he’d listen to the message and put his trust in Jesus! Just like Peter’s condition above

    Comment by Jessica Halim — May 24, 2008 @ 2:27 am

14. It seems to me that you could eliminate many of the concerns here by simply requiring that those in the worship band (or ushering, or working in the nursery) be church members. If the church is following a biblical process for membership, the member will (most likely) be a Christian. It seems that church membership is no longer seen as a necessary thing for Christians — maybe part of the reason is the lack of membership being a requirement for involvement in much of the work of the church. Bob’s posting above aluded to this, but I think it’s worthy of more consideration.

    Here’s an extreme hypothetical situation, but it may illustrate the point. Suppose you have a single, unsaved young woman in the worship band. Suppose she becomes pregnant. What do you do now that her sinful lifestyle becomes obvious to the congregation? Do you tell her that now that the sin she has been living in all along is visible, she can no longer be a part of the band? Now suppose the single young woman is not an unbeliever, but a saved non-member of the church and is in the worship band, and becomes pregnant. How do you address sin in a professing believer who you have allowed to have a ministry in your church but has not committed to membership in your church? Biblical church discipline simply does not fit this issue, because the church never required her to commit to a relationship of integrity and accountability with the church family.

    Any thoughts?

    Comment by Suzanne — May 24, 2008 @ 4:31 pm

15. Bob,
    Excellent post. So grateful for your insight into the role of the church as distinct from God’s role in saving sinners through the gospel. I beleive this focuses our hope and praise toward God. Neither eloquent preachers, nor skilled worship leaders, nor church programs, nor church involvement can ever regenerate a heart or atone for sin. We must emphasize God’s exclusive role and glory in the gospel. I completely agree with you–the church is the gathering of the redeemed, not the redeemer of the gathered.
    Much gratefulness,
    Jon

    Comment by jon payne — May 24, 2008 @ 5:37 pm

16. great thougths everybody.

    I’m curious about what you would think of the situation i find myself in. currently i am the assistant to our music pastor and the two of us have differing opinions on this very subject. i agree with what appears to be the majority here, that being in the worship band makes you, in some small part, a worship leader and that you should profess Christ as your Lord and savior before leading God’s people in worship.
    However, our music pastor feels that it is a good evangelistic tool.
    We have discussed this multiple times and how i feel is no secret to our music pastor. What should i do? continue to bring the topic up? i don’t want to raise a stink and i do want to be respectful of the pastor’s authority.
    Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Love your posts Bob.

    Comment by brenden — May 24, 2008 @ 9:51 pm

17. Brenden,

    Thanks for your comment. I’d talk to your senior pastor about the issue. Maybe you could show your music pastor this post and the various comments and set up a time to talk about them. I know that I couldn’t in good conscience participate on a team that was included unbelievers, supposedly leading the church in worshiping the Savior, although I’d be happy to reach out to them outside of that context.

    Comment by Bob Kauflin — May 24, 2008 @ 11:50 pm

18. Good thoughts.

    Less on non-Christians on the team, and more about the behavior of those who are on it…this is an interesting conversation. It is true that being on a worship team comes with responsibilities. BUT, if we start measuring how good we are as Christians and trying to use that as a rule by which to determine if we can be on the team, we are only fooling ourselves. True, the fruit of one’s life is indicative of where their heart lies, but we all struggle with things. The whole point is that we CAN’T lead perfect lives, and we shouldn’t expect people to. We can and should only expect them to care enough to press into their faith. We are Christians, and we shall be known as such by our love, not our correctness.

    On non-Christians on the team? No, I don’t think so. Maybe jamming here and there with the worship band in off time, but not on a regular service time. It IS a time for Christians to come together to worship their savior. If one hasn’t realized their savior, how can one worship Him, much less lead others to?

    Good thoughts, good post.

    Comment by Justin — May 25, 2008 @ 2:18 am

19. suzanne this situation is simular to my story…I was a member and still remain a member of my church,however 18mos.ago I found myself being asked the question what did i think should happen now that i was pregant, not married and a youth leader?. guess i was’nt clear with what happens to church members-(believers) who sin. I thought they did what the word says to do; confess,repent,forgiven and God remembers them not. however thats not what happen.serving is apart of being a christian and all have fallen short of the glory, so why is the outward sin looked apon differently?

    Comment by dee — May 25, 2008 @ 2:31 am

20. Dee,

    Thanks for stopping by. I had two responses to your comment.

    First, leaders are completely completely forgiven for their sins because of the atoning death of Christ but still have to experience the consequences of it. God may “remember not” our sins, but people do remember. That means leaders may have to step down from a leadership position for a time or even permanently for the sake of those who look to them as an example. It doesn’t mean leaders are sinless. It’s just that their behavior should be in line with the gospel they preach ( Heb. 13:17Hebrews 13:17
    [17]Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are
    keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to
    give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with
    groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    ; Titus 1:5-9Titus 1:5-9
    [5]This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might
    put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every
    town as I directed you-- [6]if anyone is above reproach,
    the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and
    not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
    [7]For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above
    reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a
    drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, [8]but hospitable,
    a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and
    disciplined. [9]He must hold firm to the trustworthy word
    as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in
    sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
    (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    ).

    Second, the topic of this particular post is non-Christians on the worship team, not the behavior of believers, as Justin pointed out. I’d like the comments to stay on track.

    Thanks!

    Comment by Bob Kauflin — May 25, 2008 @ 8:03 am

21. Totally agree, In Acts 6Acts 6
    [6:1]Now in these days when the disciples were
    increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose
    against the Hebrews because their widows were being
    neglected in the daily distribution. [2]And the twelve
    summoned the full number of the disciples and said, "It is
    not right that we should give up preaching the word of God
    to serve tables. [3]Therefore, brothers, pick out from
    among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and
    of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. [4]But we
    will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the
    word." [5]And what they said pleased the whole gathering,
    and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy
    Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon,
    and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.
    [6]These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and
    laid their hands on them.
    [7]And the word of God continued to increase, and the
    number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem,
    and a great many of the priests became obedient to the
    faith.
    [8]And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great
    wonders and signs among the people. [9]Then some of those
    who belonged to the synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was
    called), and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and
    of those from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and disputed with
    Stephen. [10]But they could not withstand the wisdom and
    the Spirit with which he was speaking. [11]Then they
    secretly instigated men who said, "We have heard him speak
    blasphemous words against Moses and God." [12]And they
    stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes, and
    they came upon him and seized him and brought him before
    the council, [13]and they set up false witnesses who said,
    "This man never ceases to speak words against this holy
    place and the law, [14]for we have heard him say that this
    Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will change
    the customs that Moses delivered to us." [15]And gazing at
    him, all who sat in the council saw that his face was like
    the face of an angel. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    the Apostles look for guys who are of good reputation and filled with the Holy Spirit and Wisdom; their job - to serve tables!
    I know the jobs where more complex than just handing out the bread and cheese but it seems that we take the ‘qualifications’ for serving in the church very lightly compared to the high calling of God upon those who serve.

    Comment by Boaly — May 26, 2008 @ 9:56 am

22. [...] Can a non-Christian be part of a worship leadership team? I don’t think so. [...]

    [WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The comment’s server IP (66.135.48.142) doesn’t match the comment’s URL host IP (76.74.254.125) and so is spam.

    Pingback by Nothing much but links today… « CA DAWG Thoughts and Links — May 26, 2008 @ 12:35 pm

23. We had a non-Christian on our youth worship team at my old church for a time, but it became pretty evident that he was on the team simply to play music. That is the other thing to consider with believers and those who don’t…what are they even on the team for?

    Either way, this guy was finally confronted about it, and as it turns out he is a Christian now. Playing on that team and seeing first hand why they play ended up being the perfect outreach for him. At what point do we stop and think “Hey, this isn’t exactly orthodox, but it could really be of great help”? I mean, if we stuck to the rules, he wouldn’t have played and might not have been saved. Once again, we are to be known by our love, not our correctness. How do we balance the rules in this way?

    Comment by Justin — May 26, 2008 @ 7:02 pm

24. Bob & Everyone,

    I’ve so enjoyed reading your post and everyone’s comments. Revelation 4:11Revelation 4:11
    [11]"Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    for you created all things,
    and by your will they existed and were created."

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    says “Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou hast created all things, and for they pleasure they are and were created.” Why are we here?…to bring glory to God. Isaiah 42:8Isaiah 42:8
    [8]I am the LORD; that is my name;
    my glory I give to no other,
    nor my praise to carved idols.

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    says “I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” God is very jealous of this area.

    The praise team doesn’t necessarily fall under the category of elder or deacon so we can’t apply the clear cut Biblical rules here, or women and/or nonbelievers would not be Biblically allowed to lead in worship even in a support position, since the qualification is godly believing males. But, I believe the musicians and singers should fall under the spititual approval and leadership of the church elders.

    John 4:23-24John 4:23-24
    [23]But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the
    true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and
    truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship
    him. [24]God is spirit, and those who worship him must
    worship in spirit and truth." (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    says, “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they they worship him must worship him is spirit and truth.” I truly believe in order to lead others in worship, the leaders must be worshipping. Non-believers can’t do this. It is impossible for a non-believer to worship much less bring glory to God. For the sake of God’s glory and worshping Him in spirit and truth, worship vocal and musician positions should be for “Christ-like life approved” Christians only.

    My heart is deeply touched by your testimony, Peter. I praise God you know Jesus as your Savior. But,I’m curious, did the people on the praise team also do things with you outide the practice time to get to know you? Or, was the bulk of their reaching out time at practice? Or, mabe a better question, what about practicing with the praise team particularily drew you to Christ? You probably have very good insights on how Christians playing music and loving a non-believer can be a tool used to lead others to Christ. I definitely think this point should not be ignored.

    Bob, thank you for opening this discussion as a blog.

    Melissa

    Comment by Melissa Hardin — May 26, 2008 @ 8:27 pm

25. Non-Christians on the Worship Team?…

    Bob Kauflin has an excellent post on this very subject on his blog Worship Matters. It is a good read.

    <:))))><<
    Social Bookmarking……

    Trackback by Laboring In The Lord — May 27, 2008 @ 1:39 am

26. I just finished reading WORSHIP MATTERS and I can’t tell you how much reading it has helped me to gain better perspective on my leadership role as music director (a title rarely heard of anymore but one which our church has kept). The section on non-Christians in the music ministry is one I really needed to hear. It’s difficult when we don’t have all the resources in a small congregation but moving outside of God’s way of presenting the Gospel to people is not the answer. Thank you for the book…I received at the T4G 08 and it’s been a blessing to me.
    Tony

    Comment by Tony — May 27, 2008 @ 5:49 pm

27. Thank you Bob for your careful yet on target remarks. I believe that we should remember that salvation is a work of God. We are mistaken if we think that getting someone on a ‘Christian’ worship team is the only way to get them saved. God does the saving. We introduce them to the Gospel. The modern church is too caught up with baiting the hook of the Gospel with gimicks and showmanship. Christ presented the Gospel to the publicans and sinners, but he did not invite them to join the group of disciples. “A man is not worthy to be My disciples if he does not leave all and follow Me.”
    Thanks again.

    Comment by MarkO — May 27, 2008 @ 6:04 pm

28. Bob -
    Great stuff as always! Nothing to add other than my thanks for your clarity and charity - two traits that can be hard to keep together sometimes.

    Comment by Paul Martin — May 27, 2008 @ 7:58 pm

29. In my former church, where I was the Worship Pastor, we had a young man who was playing in the worship band when I came to the church who I believed was either not a Christian, or was very immature in his faith. He seemed to be interested in our team simply as a means to use his gift, rather than as a means of serving the church. I bought him a copy of C.J. Mahaney’s “The Cross-Centered Life,” and asked him if he would be willing to read through it chapter by chapter and discuss it with me. About a month later, he decided to leave our band to play on another church’s team.

    Sometimes drawing clear lines, or at least requiring a basic discipleship of those on our team, can highlight the gospel and the distinctness it requires. And sometimes simply highlighting that distinctness will make the lines clearer.

    Nothing about this issue is simple or without relational tensions. May God be merciful to us as we seek to serve him with grace and integrity. And once again, Bob, thanks for your helpful and humble comments here.

    Comment by Kyle — May 28, 2008 @ 11:22 am

30. Bob and all,

    Most of the responses have been from folks in churches that have “set” worship teams. These are usually small, select groups that meet on a regular basis to rehearse and grow together. There probably should be more emphasis on the “growing” together part of the spiritual dynamics of a worship team. This may very well take care of part of the confusion over this particular issue. The Gospel and witnessing committed discipleship is meant to confront the non-believer to their need for Christ. This may result in Kyle’s experience (go Kyle) or in Peter’s experience (Yeah God!). And it’s for this very reason that I have used talented, searching non-believers in background (ensemble)leadership roles. Worship leader - do your part to proclaim the Gospel and encourage deeper discipleship and leave the result to God.

    Here is a wonderful paragraph from “Worship by the Book” edited by D.A. Carson. On page 239, Timothy Keller’s worship arts director, Dr. Tom Jennings writes,

    “We often include non-Christian musicians in our services who have wonderful gifts and talent. We do not use them as soloists, bet we incorporate them into our ensembles. We belive this fits a Reformed “world-and-life view.” The dualistic view in many evangelical churches is that a godly, sincere Christian who is an average musicain is more pleasing to God than a non-Christian professional musician. But Reformed theology teaches that God’s natural gifts in creation are as much a work of grace as God’s gifts in salvation. . . Musical talent is the gift of God, and to ask a musician to offer up that gift in a service of worship is a good thing both for him or her and for us [the church].”

    Just some thougths from the “other” side.

    Ken

    Comment by Ken — May 29, 2008 @ 10:53 am

31. I agree that no leadership positions in the church should be held by a non-believer. It made me think though … what musical positions are and are not “leadership” ones? Do all the members of a children’s singing choir need to be professing believers? Or is their status as child members of the church because of their parents faith enough?

    Comment by Karen — May 29, 2008 @ 12:16 pm

32. response to Ken:
    I agree that God is the giver of those incredible musical gifts which many non-believers possess. And as such, I agree that when they use those talents it can be very pleasing to God. But, when we are involved as musicians with a corporate worship gathering (like the typical sunday morning), the question that needs to be asked is: As we are playing, who are we trying to bring glory to?
    You can’t be bringing glory to something that you don’t believe in. I can’t try to reflect the Tooth Fairy’s glory because i don’t believe she exists.
    So I am left wondering, who are these non-believers trying to bring glory to on a sunday morning?

    Comment by brenden — May 29, 2008 @ 1:00 pm

33. to Brendon,

    Who is the Creator of all artistic gifts? And Who will receive glory and honor when artistry is offered in the service of worship? When I gather with other Christians with the intent to worship almighty God I am concerned about one thing - am I bringing glory to God in my offering of worship? I do not reflect on the hearts of the persons who may be sharing their God-given artistic gifts. I try to keep my focus on the Creator.

    Let’s use this analogy:
    Singer/songwriter is allowed by God to create a powerful expression of praise that is accepted around the country as a meaningful addition to corporate worship. Later we find out that this person was never a professing believer - but was an agnostic who understood the language of music in the church. He/she would now profess that they were completely responsible for the song and therefore should receive all the glory for its creation. But for me, as a believer, I have some decisions to make: 1) Who is ultimately responsible for the creation of this song? 2) Does the actions and statements of the artist/creator discount the use of the song in a corporate worship service? 3) Has anything actually changed about the song (other than my knowledge and judgement of the artist)? (By the way - this has happened over and over in church music through the centuries. I am not so naive to think that in this age of worship music renewal it is not happening presently.)

    To answer your first question: When anyone plays or sings with artistic skill, they are bringing glory to the Creator regardless of their imperfect and sinful heart. As I play and sing, I do not think about trying to bring glory to God. I focus on the gifts that God has given and the disciplined skill for which I have practiced for years (and am still practicing). In this, I know that am bringing glory to God!

    Answer to your second question: I don’t worry about who non-believing musicians think about when they play or sing. I know that ultimately they can only bring glory to the Creator. For me, I reflect on the beauty and glory of God, and in this I worship. (And I try to disciple our church members to do the same.) When I hear them or participate with them in a corporate worship service, I glory in the presence of God the Creator, the Giver of all good gifts, and marvel at the grace He extended me, His child.

    Please don’t misunderstand this: I am not writing about a person fulfilling the pastoral role of leading worship, reading Holy Scripture, singing a solo, etc. But a person who plays bass, or violin, or drums, or saxophone, or sings in the choir can come and help us make music unto the Lord. They may not know God’s glory through Jesus Christ, but their gift of music reflects God’s glory - and in this I rejoice.

    Ken

    Comment by Ken — May 29, 2008 @ 3:22 pm

34. I was on a worship team that had non-Christians on it and all I can say was it was soooooooooo difficult. I don’t recommend it. They pulled people away from God and definitely took the focus of the group off of worship and God. I don’t think a worship team is an evangelistic project. People need to come to Christ before they lead a church in worship. I would rather listen to bad musicians who love God than good musicians that don’t know him when I am worshiping in church.

    Comment by Michelle — May 29, 2008 @ 3:44 pm

35. Ken:
    I very much appreciate your heart, thank you for your response. Let me answer some of the questions you pose:
    1). Who is the creator of all artistic gifts?
    ANSWER: God
    2). Who will receive glory and honor when artistry is given in the service of worship?
    ANSWER: Whatever is being worshiped.

    If the artistry is given in the service of worship to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then thanks be to God. But, if something or someone is being worshiped other than our Triune God, we have an issue.
    Your last post says that “When anyone plays or sings with artistic skill, they are bringing glory to the Creator regardless of their imperfect and sinful heart.” and “I don’t worry about who non-believing musicians think about when they play or sing. I know that ultimately they can only bring glory to the Creator.”
    Out of love i have to tell you that this is simply not true. The bible makes this very clear in the book of Amos. Chapter 6 verses 5-7 state:
    “You strum away on your harps like David
    and improvise on musical instruments.
    You drink wine by the bowlful
    and use the finest lotions,
    but you do not grieve over the ruin of Joseph.
    Therefore you will be among the first to go into exile;
    your feasting and lounging will end.”
    So we know that they strum like David who was himself a very excellent musician. We also see in Amos chapter 5:22-23 where it says :
    “Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
    I will not accept them.
    Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
    I will have no regard for them.
    Away with the noise of your songs!
    I will not listen to the music of your harps.”
    God makes it quite clear that worship is a heart issue, not a talent issue. Each member of your worship band/ praise team/ choir etc. is a worship leader to some small extent. Now maybe they aren’t the primary worship leader, but they are all doing their part to usher people into God’s presence.
    God bless.

    Comment by brenden — May 30, 2008 @ 3:54 pm

36. Brenden,

    I agree - worship is a heart issue.
    I agree - God will judge the worship leader who leads with an empty heart. He will not accept their songs or their skill.

    However, leading others in worship is a matter of skill. (I believe that is why God set an entire tribe apart to “skillfully” lead in temple worship.) In our North American church culture, a heart that is hot for God does not get you the job. If a person came to me and told me that they had a passion to lead others to worship God - I would ask them to interview and audition for me. They may have the passion, but if they don’t have the skill - they will not be assisting in the near future. I would encourage them to keep practicing. And at some levels we do not allow “on-the-job” training for worship leaders. (You choose - a would be drummer whose heart is right - but he/she has no rhythm, no stick technique, no groove, no understanding of the counterpoint between bass and drums, and no ear - or a trained and seasoned drummer who happens to be a seeker with some rough edges, but will submit to your spiritual and ethical leadership in order to play good music with other good musicians on a regular basis.)

    This side of heaven, God is going to judge the heart of every person who leads in worship - as well as those who participate in worship services (the congregation). In our fallen world and imperfect church culture, I will leave judgement of the heart to God. I will pray hard for the salvation of any musician I ever have the opportunity to work with as they help me lead God’s people in worship. And I will faithfully share my testimony of God’s grace to those vessels who relect His creative artistry - and don’t even know it!

    Thanks for the dialogue and the passages from Amos. May the revival begin among the musicians as we lead out in battle.

    Ken

    Comment by Ken — June 2, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

37. Ken,
    thanks for the posting.
    I completely agree that God wants skillful musicians (and artists of all kinds). the bible makes this clear in the construction of the tabernacle ( Exodus 26:1Exodus 26:1
    [26:1]"Moreover, you shall make the tabernacle with ten
    curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and
    scarlet yarns; you shall make them with cherubim skillfully
    worked into them. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    ), the ark of the covenant, etc. And the Levites were trained, skillful musicians. But they also all loved the Lord. In Exodus, chapter 32, after Moses comes off the mountain with the tablets and sees his people worshiping the golden calf it says in verses 25 - 26:
    Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.

    The church needs skilled musicians who love the LORD and who embrace Jesus Christ as the Messiah, our Redeemer, in whose blood all of our sins are washed away. If the church simply looks for “skilled musicians” then we hear Jesus say in Mark 7:6-7Mark 7:6-7
    [6]And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you
    hypocrites, as it is written,
    "'This people honors me with their lips,
    but their heart is far from me;
    [7]in vain do they worship me,
    teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    :
    He [Jesus] replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
    ” ‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    They worship me in vain;

    If you ask me to choose between Person A who has a heart for God but is a terrible drummer, or Person B who is a fabulous drummer that is seeking, then you set up a false dichotomy. I don’t have to choose either. I can go drummerless, I can program a drum machine, I can actively seek out a christian drummer, I can find a more innovative way of keeping the beat (i.e. get a turntablist, a beatboxer, etc.), or I can use different forms of percussion like hand-drums, I can start trying to train drummers using musicians in the ministry who i know can keep a steady beat, I can communicate with local worship leaders about whether or not they have any drummers they would be willing to share. There are many possibilities. Each church has its own unique resource limitations, and those limitations allow us to flex our God-given creativity muscles.
    Please understand that I am not judging you, Paul wrote to the church at Colossae (to an audience of christians) that we should, “teach and admonish one another with all wisdom…” ( Col 3:16Colossians 3:16
    [16]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching
    and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms
    and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your
    hearts to God. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    ). We are both on the same side and the bottom line is that we both just want to see people fall deeper in love with Jesus.
    I really appreciate your heart, it’s in the right place and you are doing what God commands: loving your neighbor (musicians).

    Comment by brenden — June 2, 2008 @ 6:44 pm

38. Just wanted to add a little more to my situation. While I was not a Christian and did not hide that, I was definitely seeking. Now, had I decided to move on, I would have done so. Also, we were not “prominent” by any means. We were there prior to the service to play music while people were still assembling. When the actual service started, we moved to our seats and did not play again. So I guess in some sense, it wasn’t really a highly visible position. We weren’t on a stage or anything and weren’t really pointed out - we were just there playing.

    The people on that team witnessed to me and I think if I’d been outright non-Christian or anti-Christian they would probably have told me that this wasn’t the appropriate place for me to be in the church. However, I wanted to know more about this Jesus guy and what made these people so different than the church people I knew growing up. They really did minister to me and helped me quite a bit.

    As noted - I can see where this is aimed and I think that for a normal praise team/worship team where people really are leading worship I would tend to agree that a worship leader who is not a Christian doesn’t make sense. In my context, we weren’t really leading worship as such. We were perhaps adding to some people’s meditation prior to gathering, but I think more than anything we tended to be background music. (Sad, but true.) I learned quite a bit from that group, both about being a Christian and about being a better musician. Their love to me and willingness to put up with my questions helped me along the path. Still, had this been a true praise band or worship team, I’d probably lean towards the direction everyone else is leaning - members only or at the very least, dedicated Christians.

    Excellent thoughts shared here and I appreciate the post. I think this is one of the more active posts I’ve seen.

    Comment by Peter — June 3, 2008 @ 9:39 pm

39. Bob,
    I just posed the question of this topic to my pastor, who is also a skilled and formally trained musician, and he responded right along the same lines as yours. A remaining question I’d like you to comment on, if you’d please, is, Do you see any flexibility for the contingency of utilizing non-Christian accompaniment to assist with the musical worship, perhaps only temporarily or intermittently, to situations such as a young church plant with only the barest minimum of musical gifts present, or say, a relatively small church not having or losing the main members of its worship team for whatever reasons (excluding leading of the musical worship)? In short, are there any circumstantial exceptions that you would approve of as being acceptable though clearly non-ideal for utilizing non-Christian musical accompaniment?
    Thank you for your sharing.
    JK

    Comment by JK — June 13, 2008 @ 1:17 pm

40. JK,

    Thanks for stopping by. First, when you ask “would you approve..” I assume you’re talking about what I’d approve of in my own church.

    Since the issue is who makes up the “church,” I don’t think the size of the church changes anything. A non-Christian can’t meaningfully participate in leading others to praise the One who redeemed them. They can play great music - they can’t worship their Redeemer. I’d rather sacrifice musical excellence and sing a cappella than water down the integrity of the church.

    Hope that helps.

    Comment by Bob Kauflin — June 13, 2008 @ 3:15 pm

41. Thanks everyone for an insightful and civil discourse regarding non Christians on a worship team. I read most but not all the posts and wanted to add another perspective.

    First my bias is that I think it is acceptable for non believers to aid in the worship of God. I read most of the posts because I really wanted to hear “the other side”, and there were some very well thought out comments.

    I would start from the perspective that every human being is a worshiper. We all ascribe worth to something or many things, which is what the word worship derives from - ascribing worth. Some worship Christ, some other gods and some themselves, or many other things. For a Christ follower everything we do is an act of worship, wether then you eat or drink or whatever you do do it all for the glory of the Lord. Picking up litter can be an act of worship, changing a diaper can be an act of worship, and so is singing a love song to Jesus. As I go about my day I buy things, I wait in line with people, all an act of worship I “do” in the company of non believers. If I need help with home repairs I enjoy seeking out my neighbor to help me repair my home as an act of worship and stewardship unto the Lord. In this way I am inviting an unbeliever to help me worship the Lord.

    Inclosing I will “say” 2 more things.

    1. We are no longer under the law but grace. No one is saved by doctrinal adherence but by grace through faith. We all do things and think things that are contrary to God’s desires because even the most sincere are not perfect.
    2. Jesus spent most of His time in public, not the synagogue. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Shall we deny one of His lost sheep a chance to help us ascribe worth to our God because he is not clean enough? Who is clean enough?

    Thank you for this forum, lets continue in love and grace to discuss this issue and may it never divide us.

    Bill

    Comment by Pastor Bill — July 1, 2008 @ 12:29 pm

42. Bill,

    Thanks for stopping by. A few thoughts…

    Asking an unbelieving neighbor to help me repair my home is a far cry from asking an unbeliever to help lead the church in praising God. To become a worshiper of God they must first receive a new heart through the work of the Holy Spirit and trust in the Gospel. Before that moment, they worship everything BUT God.

    Every one who is saved is saved by grace through faith, but unbelievers aren’t saved at all. If we lose the distinction between those who are saved through faith in the finished work of Christ and those who aren’t, the word “church” loses its meaning.

    It’s difficult to draw an analogy from Jesus’ life in this discussion because Jesus was never part of the NT church. At the very least we can say that reaching out to unbelievers in public settings (which we should do) is very different from asking them to participate in leading the redeemed in worshiping the Redeemer (which I don’t think we should do).

    But, as you said, this isn’t an issue that need divide us. For me, it’s a matter of being faithful to Scripture on who makes up the church and what we gather to do on Sunday morning.

    Thanks again for your thoughts. Please feel free to follow up.

    Comment by Bob Kauflin — July 1, 2008 @ 3:28 pm

43. [...] non-Christian in a worship band topic. That afternoon I went to Bob Kauflin’s blog, and read this post. God used it solidify what I already believed. In a state of emergency, I was almost willing to [...]

    Pingback by Provision & Bass Players — Worshiply — September 15, 2008 @ 10:10 am

44. Bob,

    Great stuff and I highly enjoyed the book.

    This issue is definitely one that I have thought a lot about and I am glad that you addressed this issue that was written because I had some confusion myself.
    I am currently leading Worship in New York City. Professional musicians, actors, and artists are all around us. Since we a three year old church there aren’t a lot of musicians in our church so we hire certain musicians. I believe in doing so it allows our church to Worship without distraction. I believe that if we didn’t have those hired musicians, the quality would suffer so much that even those who know Christ would have a hard time during our corporate Worship Gathering. I also believe that in New York, people are expecting a very high quality due to the fact that you can see the best of the best in the city any night of the week.
    I do however believe that those musicians should not lead in prayer, reading of scripture, or song.

    So question: Should I allow the quality of music to diminish so we can have all believers?

    Thanks!

    Tom

    Comment by Tom LoSchiavo — September 30, 2008 @ 8:06 am

45. Tom,

    Great question, and I appreciate your wanting to think through this carefully. I think we have to go with what God has given us in his Word. He’s told us that the church is made up of those who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ. He never says that we have to have a certain quality of music in the church so that people will come. I think the limited fruit that can come from involving non-Christians on your team are far outweighed by the negative long-term consequences. More importantly, our services are not performances. They are gathering of the people of God in Jesus Christ through the power of the Spirit. Unbelievers are certainly welcome, but they can only be there as observers, not participants. Is that helpful?

    Comment by Bob Kauflin — September 30, 2008 @ 10:35 am

46. Bob,

    Great stuff. I agree with you on the fact that I need to think about those long term consequences. So many times as a leader I just want to play with a great band because it makes me more comfortable to lead and less nervous about things going wrong. However, that is such a selfish desire that needs to die. My job is to help people grow and learn more about God.

    Thanks for your ministry and your resources. They are very helpful!

    Tom

    Comment by Tom LoSchiavo — October 29, 2008 @ 10:04 am

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI

Leave a comment