My friend, West, left a question on another post. He was asking about comments I’ve made to the effect that it isn’t a worship leader’s responsibility to lead people into God’s presence. Only Jesus can do that. West wrote:

Heb. 9Hebrews 9 [9:1]Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. [2]For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. [3]Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, [4]having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. [5]Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. [6]These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, [7]but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. [8]By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing [9](which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, [10]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [11]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [12]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. [13]For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, [14]how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. [15]Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. [16]For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. [17]For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. [18]Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. [19]For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, [20]saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." [21]And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. [22]Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. [23]Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24]For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. [25]Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, [26]for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27]And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, [28]so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

through Heb. 10:1-22Hebrews 10:1-22 [10:1]For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [2]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? [3]But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. [4]For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. [5]Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; [6]in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. [7]Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" [8]When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), [9]then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. [10]And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11]And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [12]But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [13]waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. [14]For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. [15]And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, [16]"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," [17]then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." [18]Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. [19]Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, [20]by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, [21]and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [22]let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (ESV)

This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

call us to enter the Most Holy Place confidently. John Frame says "The Most Holy Place was opened to us at the death of Christ, when the veil of the temple was torn in two" (In Spirit and Truth, 27). If God is enthroned on and abides in the praises of his people, and if he is wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in his name, then it seems that there is an actual, spiritual experience of "entering into" the holy of holies when we gather and praise him.  That being said, it seems that we as leaders in corporate worship have a kind of priestly duty to bring God’s people into his presence, his Most Holy Place, like the Israelite musicians of old. I don’t know.  Am I just way off on this?

I don’t think anyone is "way off" to ask a question like this. Part of the reason there’s so much confusion about worship and the presence of God is that we so often experience a new awareness of God’s presence when we sing his praises. We often feel like we have "entered God’s presence." What’s going on?

First, in the Old Testament, the high priest entered the holy of holies once a year on behalf of Israel ( Heb. 9:6-7Hebrews 9:6-7 [6]These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, [7]but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. (ESV)

). Jesus has now "entered once for all into the holy places." We shouldn’t think of ourselves as "entering" them again because Jesus has entered them for us. Hebrews exhorts us to draw near to God with full assurance because we have entered the holy of holies through our union with Christ. In Christ, we are always in the heavenly places and are exhorted to "draw near." Of course, we can do that at any time, although there is a particular significance when we gather as the church to express our faith in the Gospel.

Second, the issue is how we enter God’s presence. The writer of Hebrews encourages his readers to put their faith in Christ’s finished work, not to try to duplicate it. David Peterson, in Engaging with God, says, "Fundamentally, then, drawing near to God means believing the gospel and making ‘personal appropriation of salvation.’" (240). In one sense we have the "priestly duty" of reminding people of what God has said and done ( Neh. 8:8Nehemiah 8:8 [8]They read from the book, from the Law of God, clearly, and they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading. (ESV)

). But we are not leading them into the Most Holy Place. Jesus has done that for us. Through faith in his finished work we now have the privilege of confidently drawing near to God.

D.A. Carson shares some very helpful thoughts in this topic. He’s commenting on the thought that "worship leads us into the presence of God."

"Objectively, what brings us into the presence of God is the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. If we ascribe to worship (meaning, in this context, our corporate praise and adoration) something of this power, it will not be long before we think of such worship as being meritorious, or efficacious, or the like. The small corner of truth that such expressions hide (though this truth is poorly worded) is that when we come together and engage in the activities of corporate worship (including not only prayer and praise but the Lord’s Supper and attentive listening to the Word…), we encourage one another, we edify one another, and so we often feel encouraged and edified. As a result, we are renewed in our awareness of God’s love and God’s truth, and we are encouraged to respond with adoration and action" (Worship by the Book, 50-51).

So as I’m standing in front of the church, leading them in songs, Scripture reading, and prayer, my goal is not to "lead them into God’s presence," but to help them remember and celebrate what Christ has accomplished for them through his righteous life, atoning death, and glorious resurrection. As they place their faith and trust in the perfect high priest, they will most likely experience a fresh awareness of God’s nearness. Their position in Christ hasn’t changed. Their appreciation of it has. The church will be built up and God will be glorified.

Understanding this area really brings freedom to me as a worship leader. I don’t have to try to pull off an impossible task. I don’t have to be anxious about whether or not people will "make it." I simply have to present what Christ has done in a clear and compelling way to encourage people’s faith. The Holy Spirit takes care of the rest.

18 Comments »

1. This is a helpful post. I recently held a retreat for members of our church’s praise team, and a woman from the group shared that she sensed God’s presence in a special way when the gathered church was singing, and she cited a verse in the Bible (which I honestly don’t know where to find) that says something like “God inhabits the praise of his people.” She took that to mean that God is present when we sing in a way he is not when we aren’t singing.

   I wasn’t altogether comfortable with her comment, but wasn’t sure how to respond. This post is a step in the right direction for me. How would you respond to the “God inhabits the praise” thing?

   Comment by Kyle — July 7, 2007 @ 10:26 pm

2. I believe that, as, we as worship leaders stand before the congregations around the world, we are “Magnifying” the Lord and as we take our attention off of all of the things life throws at us, He is enlarged in our hearts. Worship Leaders have responsibilities just as Pastors do. Just as pastors have the responsibility to get before the Lord to “hear” the Word he is to bring to his congregation, so too, the Worship Leader has to get before the Lord to spend time so that on Sunday morning there is an overflow of the Spirit and people are able to “enter in” or “Magnify” (make larger than life) the Lord.

   I hope this makes sense. This is the only way I can step out in front and lead corporate worship whether in the choir or as part of the Worship Team.

   God bless!
   Oh, MAGNIFY the Lord with me and let us exalt his name together.

   Robin

   Comment by Robin — July 7, 2007 @ 11:01 pm

3. Well Psalm 22Psalm 22
   [22:1]My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
   Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my
   groaning?
   [2]O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
   and by night, but I find no rest.
   [3]Yet you are holy,
   enthroned on the praises of Israel.
   [4]In you our fathers trusted;
   they trusted, and you delivered them.
   [5]To you they cried and were rescued;
   in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
   [6]But I am a worm and not a man,
   scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
   [7]All who see me mock me;
   they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
   [8]"He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him;
   let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"
   [9]Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
   you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
   [10]On you was I cast from my birth,
   and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
   [11]Be not far from me,
   for trouble is near,
   and there is none to help.
   [12]Many bulls encompass me;
   strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
   [13]they open wide their mouths at me,
   like a ravening and roaring lion.
   [14]I am poured out like water,
   and all my bones are out of joint;
   my heart is like wax;
   it is melted within my breast;
   [15]my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
   and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
   you lay me in the dust of death.
   [16]For dogs encompass me;
   a company of evildoers encircles me;
   they have pierced my hands and feet--
   [17]I can count all my bones--
   they stare and gloat over me;
   [18]they divide my garments among them,
   and for my clothing they cast lots.
   [19]But you, O LORD, do not be far off!
   O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
   [20]Deliver my soul from the sword,
   my precious life from the power of the dog!
   [21]Save me from the mouth of the lion!
   You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!
   [22]I will tell of your name to my brothers;
   in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
   [23]You who fear the LORD, praise him!
   All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
   and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
   [24]For he has not despised or abhorred
   the affliction of the afflicted,
   and he has not hidden his face from him,
   but has heard, when he cried to him.
   [25]From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
   my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
   [26]The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
   those who seek him shall praise the LORD!
   May your hearts live forever!
   [27]All the ends of the earth shall remember
   and turn to the LORD,
   and all the families of the nations
   shall worship before you.
   [28]For kingship belongs to the LORD,
   and he rules over the nations.
   [29]All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
   before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
   even the one who could not keep himself alive.
   [30]Posterity shall serve him;
   it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
   [31]they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a
   people yet unborn,
   that he has done it.

   This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

   .3 (in the Hebrew 22:4, in the LXX 21:3… welcome to the wierd world of psalm verse numbers in the ancient versions) says (according to KJV) “But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.” This is actually a reasonable translation (and is followed in most English, Spanish, French and German versions). the Septuagint didn´t like this or thought it made more sense to translate the phrase as “But you, (that is the Praise of Israel), dwell in a sanctuary” which is a lot clearer and more straighforward theologically, but goes against the accentuation of the MT (which has an athnak on the word “holy”: “you are holy”, that is the one who inhabits the praises of Israel) as well as the syntax of the Hebrew.

   NIV is rather optimistic and translates “Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel” which is nice, but nothing to do with what the text says (and it basically admits this in the footnote alternative “Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel”)

   Well that was fun… I think basically the answer is that verse is not a doctrinal statement on the location of the presence of God, and it´s worth asking exactly WHAT lives in the singing? The Holy Spirit? Is He attracted by singing in a way that he is not by spoken praise? Does he dwell in a said communion service? If you think about what you are actually saying if you claim God is especially present during singing it gets a bit complex.

   Loved the post.

   J

   Comment by James Palmer — July 8, 2007 @ 1:16 pm

4. I really appreciate your comments on this. Recently I’ve been working on a worship page for our church website. In researching other church websites I’ve come across several purpose statements that include phrases that the purpose of the worship ministries is to help the congregation “enter into God’s presence” etc. I found myself wrestling with that because if we believe that God is omnipresent then how is it that we can go “into” His presence which would suggest that we were somehow “out of” it at some point. I think the concept of “remembering” or “reminding” people that we are always in His presence when we gather in order to worship Him corporately makes more sense and might help people to foster the truth that worship is a whole-life response to God.

   Comment by Jon Althoff — July 9, 2007 @ 12:37 pm

5. Hi Bob,
   Love this post.

   I have a question that you might wish to answer on your blog: How do you audition your musicians? Do you have any resources you can share? What kind of questions do you ask? How do you audition your guitarists?

   I am in the middle of this process currently and would love to hear your input. Thanks!

   Comment by Stephen — July 9, 2007 @ 2:54 pm

6. Stephen,

   Thanks for stopping by. I did a post on auditions on Oct. 20, 2006. It’s at:

   http://worshipmatters.blogs.com/bobkauflin/2006/10/qa_fridays_audi.html

   Comment by Bob Kauflin — July 9, 2007 @ 5:23 pm

7. GOLD Bob. I am so thankful for guys like you are well thought out in theology of worship and do it so well! We are really looking forward to trying some of your songs at our church.

   Comment by Sam — July 9, 2007 @ 6:16 pm

8. What a joyous truth–Jesus has now “entered once for all into the holy places.”

   What ‘relief’ it is when I come to worship on Sunday mornings musing over how unworthy and sinful I am, then to realize that I can come boldly and approach the Lord’s throne with confidence because of Christ’s finished work! And this is for every single Sunday!

   Thank you for this reminder, Bob!

   Comment by Rhea — July 9, 2007 @ 6:59 pm

9. As usual Bob, you’re right on with this one. One of pastors frequently prays “Lord, we come into your presence …”… I’d argue that not only is saying that wrong theologically, it also perpetuates the notion that we can only worship God in the church “sanctuary.” It’s much more helpful to remind people in our prayers, in our songs and in our comments that God is here! Let’s be aware of that fact and draw near.
   PS: I saw an ad for a worship position stating that they were looking for someone that can “sense God’s presence.” (there He is! Behind row 10 — nope, He’s moved to the left side of the church now — wait a minute; rats, lost Him).

   Comment by David Wells — July 10, 2007 @ 1:09 am

10. Dave

    hmmm…I feel that you are being a bit pedantic on the point you mentioned about the pastor. I doubt that the pastor mentioned in the above comment really expects the worship leader to be able to find God in the crowded sanctuary. I’m pretty sure he’s looking for a leader who is mature enough to hear and listen to the Spirit’s leading.

    I hate the semantics that this pastor used, but when you attack language, that’s all you’re attacking. This pastor obviously meant something else.

    Comment by jscottkill — July 10, 2007 @ 2:10 pm

11. I completely agree that in Christ we have entered into the Holy of Holies, God’s presence. But do you think there is still a distinction between God’s omnipresence and his manifest presence? You didn’t mention the idea that God manifests himself in tangible (and dare I say experiential) ways as we gather together, whether in large groups or just 2 or 3. This seems to me to go beyond our ability to make ourselves aware of his omnipresence.

    Comment by Julie — July 11, 2007 @ 8:20 am

12. Hello,
    I would like to tell you that this website has encouraged me greatly and that God has used it to inspire me and enhance my worldview pertaining to worship music.
    A little while ago I felt led to write a study on worship music. I have several questions I’d like to ask you but will try not to bombard you : )
    1. Is it important for worship (and, consequently, worship music) to be both spontaneous and deliberate? Can it be?
    2. Should physical expressions always be the overflow of what we feel inside or can we motivate ourselves to worship by raising our hands, clapping, kneeling, etc.?

    Comment by Julia Byrd — July 12, 2007 @ 7:46 pm

13. I check here every day to see if there’s a new post. Of course you’re busy and have much going on - just know that your thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated, and there are many who would love to hear from you again!

    Grace with you,

    Kyle

    Comment by Kyle — July 20, 2007 @ 10:54 am

14. I have to agree with Julie who left a comment a few up. While the objective truths of the Gospel and the omnipresence of God are sure and fast - and we rejoice in that - if we really believe that the Bible is our final authority then surely we have to accept that there is a distinction between the omnipresence of God and the manifest glory of God which IS to be experienced and encountered?

    Here’s a few examples from Scripture that came to me;

    Exodus 33:3, 14, 18Exodus 33:3
    [3]Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; but I
    will not go up among you, lest I consume you on the way,
    for you are a stiff-necked people." (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    - God said to Moses that He wouldn’t go up with them to the land of Israel but send an angel instead. Was God still omnipresent? Of course He was! But did the promise of His Presence make a difference to Moses? Clearly - else why else would he have interceded so much?

    Ezekiel 10:4, 18, 23Ezekiel 10:4
    [4]And the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub to
    the threshold of the house, and the house was filled with
    the cloud, and the court was filled with the brightness of
    the glory of the LORD. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    and 43:2- the glory of God was seen departing from the temple in stages and then returning at the end of the book with the sound of rushing waters. Was God still omnipresent? Of course. But did Jerusalem suffer in God’s absence? Absolutely. And what happened when the people heeded His commands and repented? The glory of God or His manifest Presence returned.

    Acts 2:2Acts 2:2
    [2]And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a
    mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where
    they were sitting. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    - the Day of Pentecost! Was God omnipresent? Of course. Well if He was equally present everywhere then why did people come running TO where the disciples were receiving this encounter with God?

    Acts 4:31Acts 4:31
    [31]And when they had prayed, the place in which they
    were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled
    with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God
    with boldness. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    - the place was shaken! Was God omnipresent? Of course! But was the place shaking everywhere across the city? It doesn’t say so.

    1 Corinthians 14:24-251 Corinthians 14:24-25
    [24]But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider
    enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by
    all, [25]the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so,
    falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that
    God is really among you. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    - If God is ominpresent everywhere in such power then why aren’t unbelievers everywhere falling down and saying ‘God is truly among you?’. It seems to me that what made the unbelievers fall down and say this was the manifestation of prophecy in their midst.

    Let’s not allow our experience (the lack of His Presence) to shape our theology and settle for less than what He intended - Ephesians 2:20Ephesians 2:20
    [20]built on the foundation of the apostles and
    prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    “The dwelling place of God in the Spirit”.

    Comment by Dan — July 25, 2007 @ 5:41 am

15. I was sent the link to this post by a friend of mine today. It is a very interesting article and says a lot to encourage worship leaders. It is very liberating that the responsibility of bringing people into God’s presence isn’t mine, but the Holy Spirit’s. It is so good that all has been done for us by Him! That He has gone into “the Most Holy Place one for all, having obtained eternal redemption.” ( Heb 9Hebrews 9
    [9:1]Now even the first covenant had regulations for
    worship and an earthly place of holiness. [2]For a tent was
    prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand
    and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called
    the Holy Place. [3]Behind the second curtain was a second
    section called the Most Holy Place, [4]having the golden
    altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all
    sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the
    manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of
    the covenant. [5]Above it were the cherubim of glory
    overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now
    speak in detail.
    [6]These preparations having thus been made, the priests
    go regularly into the first section, performing their
    ritual duties, [7]but into the second only the high priest
    goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood,
    which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins
    of the people. [8]By this the Holy Spirit indicates that
    the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as
    the first section is still standing [9](which is symbolic
    for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts
    and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the
    conscience of the worshiper, [10]but deal only with food
    and drink and various washings, regulations for the body
    imposed until the time of reformation.
    [11]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the
    good things that have come, then through the greater and
    more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of
    this creation) [12]he entered once for all into the holy
    places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but
    by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal
    redemption. [13]For if the blood of goats and bulls, and
    the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a
    heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, [14]how
    much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
    Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our
    conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
    [15]Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so
    that those who are called may receive the promised eternal
    inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them
    from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
    [16]For where a will is involved, the death of the one who
    made it must be established. [17]For a will takes effect
    only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one
    who made it is alive. [18]Therefore not even the first
    covenant was inaugurated without blood. [19]For when every
    commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all
    the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with
    water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the
    book itself and all the people, [20]saying, "This is the
    blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." [21]And
    in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent
    and all the vessels used in worship. [22]Indeed, under the
    law almost everything is purified with blood, and without
    the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
    [23]Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly
    things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly
    things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    [24]For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with
    hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven
    itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
    [25]Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high
    priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his
    own, [26]for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly
    since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has
    appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away
    sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27]And just as it is
    appointed for man to die once, and after that comes
    judgment, [28]so Christ, having been offered once to bear
    the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal
    with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
    (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    v11).

    However, isn’t there also a sense in which we are responsible to pursue that which the Lord has done for us? That happens in other areas of the Christian life. We have been declared righteous, but we are still responsible for living righteously.

    Legally we have access into the presence of God at all times and in all places. Christ has gone in on our behalf having obtained eternal redemption. Through that completed offering, the curtain is open. But then we are responsible for entering in. Not on the basis of any perceived “merit” coming from our worship, but on the basis of His finished work.

    He entered in for redemption (fulfilling the Day of Atonement). We now must chose to enter in for fellowship. It is not automatic. If it were, why do we have exhortation “let us draw near…” ( Heb 10Hebrews 10
    [10:1]For since the law has but a shadow of the good
    things to come instead of the true form of these realities,
    it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually
    offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
    [2]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered,
    since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no
    longer have any consciousness of sins? [3]But in these
    sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. [4]For
    it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take
    away sins.
    [5]Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he
    said,
    "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
    but a body have you prepared for me;
    [6]in burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you have taken no pleasure.
    [7]Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O
    God,
    as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
    [8]When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken
    pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings
    and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the
    law), [9]then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your
    will." He does away with the first in order to establish
    the second. [10]And by that will we have been sanctified
    through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for
    all.
    [11]And every priest stands daily at his service,
    offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never
    take away sins. [12]But when Christ had offered for all
    time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right
    hand of God, [13]waiting from that time until his enemies
    should be made a footstool for his feet. [14]For by a
    single offering he has perfected for all time those who are
    being sanctified.
    [15]And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for
    after saying,
    [16]"This is the covenant that I will make with them
    after those days, declares the Lord:
    I will put my laws on their hearts,
    and write them on their minds,"
    [17]then he adds,
    "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no
    more."
    [18]Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer
    any offering for sin.
    [19]Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to
    enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, [20]by the new
    and living way that he opened for us through the curtain,
    that is, through his flesh, [21]and since we have a great
    priest over the house of God, [22]let us draw near with a
    true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts
    sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies
    washed with pure water. [23]Let us hold fast the confession
    of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is
    faithful. [24]And let us consider how to stir up one
    another to love and good works, [25]not neglecting to meet
    together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one
    another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
    [26]For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving
    the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a
    sacrifice for sins, [27]but a fearful expectation of
    judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the
    adversaries. [28]Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses
    dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three
    witnesses. [29]How much worse punishment, do you think,
    will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God,
    and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was
    sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? [30]For
    we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay."
    And again, "The Lord will judge his people." [31]It is a
    fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    [32]But recall the former days when, after you were
    enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
    [33]sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and
    affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so
    treated. [34]For you had compassion on those in prison, and
    you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property,
    since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession
    and an abiding one. [35]Therefore do not throw away your
    confidence, which has a great reward. [36]For you have need
    of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God
    you may receive what is promised. [37]For,
    "Yet a little while,
    and the coming one will come and will not delay;
    [38]but my righteous one shall live by faith,
    and if he shrinks back,
    my soul has no pleasure in him."
    [39]But we are not of those who shrink back and are
    destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their
    souls. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    v22)? Also, James 4James 4
    [4:1]What causes quarrels and what causes fights among
    you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within
    you? [2]You desire and do not have, so you murder. You
    covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do
    not have, because you do not ask. [3]You ask and do not
    receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your
    passions. [4]You adulterous people! Do you not know that
    friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore
    whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an
    enemy of God. [5]Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that
    the Scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit
    that he has made to dwell in us"? [6]But he gives more
    grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives
    grace to the humble." [7]Submit yourselves therefore to
    God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [8]Draw
    near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your
    hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-
    minded. [9]Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your
    laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
    [10]Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt
    you.
    [11]Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The
    one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother,
    speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you
    judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
    [12]There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to
    save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
    [13]Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go
    into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade
    and make a profit"-- [14]yet you do not know what tomorrow
    will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that
    appears for a little time and then vanishes. [15]Instead
    you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do
    this or that." [16]As it is, you boast in your arrogance.
    All such boasting is evil. [17]So whoever knows the right
    thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    v8 says “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.” This is something that we must do.

    Furthermore, as new covenant saints, surely we can cry “show us Your glory” and hunger and thirst for a tangible manifestation of the presence of God. Of course we know by faith He is ever-present. We know He inhabits our praises, but surely we must long to experience - to feel - more and more the taste of His glory in our meetings.

    Comment by Peter Day — July 25, 2007 @ 10:04 am

16. I’m very hungry to be where God is more real than anything else. I love and serve Him to the best of my ability but I long to see real manifestations of His spirit. Why don’t we see the signs that are supposed to follow them that believe? Christians who are being persecuted in other countries are seeing them. I won’t stop until I am satisfied by His Glory.

    Comment by Kathy — August 14, 2007 @ 12:22 pm

17. Julie, Dan, Peter, and Kathy -

    You all bring up a great point. We can understand the presence of God in different ways. God is omnipresent, he has promised his presence when we gather, he can be actively present, and one day we will see him in his unveiled presence. My point in this post was to more clearly define “entering God’s presence.” The fact that Jesus has brought us into the Father’s presence in reality should make us eager to experience his active, revealed, or manifest presence. But we shouldn’t think at that moment that we’ve actually “entered” God’s presence. He’s been with us the whole time. We need to keep a healthy tension between celebrating his promised presence and eagerly anticipating and crying out for his active presence.

    Comment by bkauflin — August 23, 2007 @ 6:34 pm

18. I was searching this website and came across this thread. I recently have been studying Exodus along with Ryken’s excellent commentary on Exodus. What is amazingly clear is that, for Israel, God’s presence was directly associated with the tabernacle. His Shekina Glory was over the tabernacle. Ryken says that the tabernacle helps us to understanding what it means for God to dwell with us. Later Jesus came and dwelt (tabernacled) among us ( John 1John 1
    [1:1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was
    with God, and the Word was God. [2]He was in the beginning
    with God. [3]All things were made through him, and without
    him was not any thing made that was made. [4]In him was
    life, and the life was the light of men. [5]The light
    shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome
    it.
    [6]There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    [7]He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light,
    that all might believe through him. [8]He was not the
    light, but came to bear witness about the light.
    [9]The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming
    into the world. [10]He was in the world, and the world was
    made through him, yet the world did not know him. [11]He
    came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
    [12]But to all who did receive him, who believed in his
    name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13]who
    were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of
    the will of man, but of God.
    [14]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we
    have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the
    Father, full of grace and truth. [15](John bore witness
    about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He
    who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before
    me.'") [16]And from his fullness we have all received,
    grace upon grace. [17]For the law was given through Moses;
    grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. [18]No one has
    ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side,
    he has made him known.
    [19]And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews
    sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who
    are you?" [20]He confessed, and did not deny, but
    confessed, "I am not the Christ." [21]And they asked him,
    "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you
    the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." [22]So they said to
    him, "Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who
    sent us. What do you say about yourself?" [23]He said, "I
    am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make
    straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."
    [24](Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.)
    [25]They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are
    neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" [26]John
    answered them, "I baptize with water, but among you stands
    one you do not know, [27]even he who comes after me, the
    strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." [28]These
    things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John
    was baptizing.
    [29]The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and
    said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of
    the world! [30]This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a
    man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' [31]I
    myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came
    baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel."
    [32]And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from
    heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. [33]I myself
    did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water
    said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and
    remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
    [34]And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the
    Son of God."
    [35]The next day again John was standing with two of his
    disciples, [36]and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and
    said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" [37]The two disciples
    heard him say this, and they followed Jesus. [38]Jesus
    turned and saw them following and said to them, "What are
    you seeking?" And they said to him, "Rabbi" (which means
    Teacher), "where are you staying?" [39]He said to them,
    "Come and you will see." So they came and saw where he was
    staying, and they stayed with him that day, for it was
    about the tenth hour. [40]One of the two who heard John
    speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
    [41]He first found his own brother Simon and said to him,
    "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ). [42]He
    brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "So you
    are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas"
    (which means Peter).
    [43]The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He
    found Philip and said to him, "Follow me." [44]Now Philip
    was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
    [45]Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found
    him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote,
    Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." [46]Nathanael said
    to him, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip
    said to him, "Come and see." [47]Jesus saw Nathanael coming
    toward him and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed,
    in whom there is no deceit!" [48]Nathanael said to him,
    "How do you know me?" Jesus answered him, "Before Philip
    called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
    [49]Nathanael answered him, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God!
    You are the King of Israel!" [50]Jesus answered him,
    "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do
    you believe? You will see greater things than these."
    [51]And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you
    will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and
    descending on the Son of Man." (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    ). Now we, both individually and as a church, are the temple of God. Individually, God dwells in us, and God has promised never to take His Spirit away. Finally, someday we will be in heaven in His direct presence.

    For hundreds of years the church has used Ps 100Psalm 100
    [100:1]Make a joyful noise to the LORD, all the earth!
    [2]Serve the LORD with gladness!
    Come into his presence with singing!
    [3]Know that the LORD, he is God!
    It is he who made us, and we are his;
    we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
    [4]Enter his gates with thanksgiving,
    and his courts with praise!
    Give thanks to him; bless his name!
    [5]For the LORD is good;
    his steadfast love endures forever,
    and his faithfulness to all generations.

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    as a call to worship. Yet Ps 100Psalm 100
    [100:1]Make a joyful noise to the LORD, all the earth!
    [2]Serve the LORD with gladness!
    Come into his presence with singing!
    [3]Know that the LORD, he is God!
    It is he who made us, and we are his;
    we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
    [4]Enter his gates with thanksgiving,
    and his courts with praise!
    Give thanks to him; bless his name!
    [5]For the LORD is good;
    his steadfast love endures forever,
    and his faithfulness to all generations.

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    was obviously written with the thought of approaching the tabernacle and the tabernacle courts and gates where the physical manifestation of God resided. There was one place for worship, unlike today ( John 4John 4
    [4:1]Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard
    that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than
    John [2](although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only
    his disciples), [3]he left Judea and departed again for
    Galilee. [4]And he had to pass through Samaria. [5]So he
    came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field
    that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. [6]Jacob's well was
    there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was
    sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.
    [7]A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said
    to her, "Give me a drink." [8](For his disciples had gone
    away into the city to buy food.) [9]The Samaritan woman
    said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink
    from me, a woman of Samaria?" (For Jews have no dealings
    with Samaritans.) [10]Jesus answered her, "If you knew the
    gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me
    a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given
    you living water." [11]The woman said to him, "Sir, you
    have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep.
    Where do you get that living water? [12]Are you greater
    than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from
    it himself, as did his sons and his livestock." [13]Jesus
    said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will be
    thirsty again, [14]but whoever drinks of the water that I
    will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I
    will give him will become in him a spring of water welling
    up to eternal life." [15]The woman said to him, "Sir, give
    me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to
    come here to draw water."
    [16]Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come
    here." [17]The woman answered him, "I have no husband."
    Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, 'I have no
    husband'; [18]for you have had five husbands, and the one
    you now have is not your husband. What you have said is
    true." [19]The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you
    are a prophet. [20]Our fathers worshiped on this mountain,
    but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people
    ought to worship." [21]Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe
    me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in
    Jerusalem will you worship the Father. [22]You worship what
    you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is
    from the Jews. [23]But the hour is coming, and is now here,
    when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit
    and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship
    him. [24]God is spirit, and those who worship him must
    worship in spirit and truth." [25]The woman said to him, "I
    know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When
    he comes, he will tell us all things." [26]Jesus said to
    her, "I who speak to you am he."
    [27]Just then his disciples came back. They marveled
    that he was talking with a woman, but no one said, "What do
    you seek?" or, "Why are you talking with her?" [28]So the
    woman left her water jar and went away into town and said
    to the people, [29]"Come, see a man who told me all that I
    ever did. Can this be the Christ?" [30]They went out of the
    town and were coming to him.
    [31]Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying,
    "Rabbi, eat." [32]But he said to them, "I have food to eat
    that you do not know about." [33]So the disciples said to
    one another, "Has anyone brought him something to eat?"
    [34]Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him
    who sent me and to accomplish his work. [35]Do you not say,
    'There are yet four months, then comes the harvest'? Look,
    I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are
    white for harvest. [36]Already the one who reaps is
    receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so
    that sower and reaper may rejoice together. [37]For here
    the saying holds true, 'One sows and another reaps.' [38]I
    sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others
    have labored, and you have entered into their labor."
    [39]Many Samaritans from that town believed in him
    because of the woman's testimony, "He told me all that I
    ever did." [40]So when the Samaritans came to him, they
    asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days.
    [41]And many more believed because of his word. [42]They
    said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you
    said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and
    we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."
    [43]After the two days he departed for Galilee. [44](For
    Jesus himself had testified that a prophet has no honor in
    his own hometown.) [45]So when he came to Galilee, the
    Galileans welcomed him, having seen all that he had done in
    Jerusalem at the feast. For they too had gone to the feast.
    [46]So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had
    made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official
    whose son was ill. [47]When this man heard that Jesus had
    come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to
    come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of
    death. [48]So Jesus said to him, "Unless you see signs and
    wonders you will not believe." [49]The official said to
    him, "Sir, come down before my child dies." [50]Jesus said
    to him, "Go; your son will live." The man believed the word
    that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way. [51]As he was
    going down, his servants met him and told him that his son
    was recovering. [52]So he asked them the hour when he began
    to get better, and they said to him, "Yesterday at the
    seventh hour the fever left him." [53]The father knew that
    was the hour when Jesus had said to him, "Your son will
    live." And he himself believed, and all his household.
    [54]This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had
    come from Judea to Galilee. (ESV)

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    ). There was one place where God’s manifested presence resided.

    So based on your comments and that of D. A. Carson, in what sense is it proper for us to use Ps. 100Psalm 100
    [100:1]Make a joyful noise to the LORD, all the earth!
    [2]Serve the LORD with gladness!
    Come into his presence with singing!
    [3]Know that the LORD, he is God!
    It is he who made us, and we are his;
    we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
    [4]Enter his gates with thanksgiving,
    and his courts with praise!
    Give thanks to him; bless his name!
    [5]For the LORD is good;
    his steadfast love endures forever,
    and his faithfulness to all generations.

    This text is from the ESV Bible. Visit www.esv.org to learn about the ESV.

    as a call to worship as a church? How do you understand the encouragement to “come into His presence” or “enter His gates…and..courts” In other words, how would you explain the direct use of this OT passage for the church?

    I’m also curious as to what passages of Scripture support the statement that we should be ”eager to experience His active, revealed, or manifest presence.”

    Comment by Larry — May 9, 2008 @ 6:56 pm

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