Blessings!

Thanks for stopping by. Please feel free to share In the First Light with your congregation.

Have a grace-filled Christmas season.

I know this is a long time after the event but i was wondering if you could clarify a few things for me: Firstly, what do you mean when you say, “Every church should be able to point to SOME manifestations of the Spirit’s working in their midst.” Having written that i noticed above in the comments section that you have said in response to one of the questions “I’m not sure the gifts in the NT look as different as you suggest. There appear to be more “supernatural manifestations” taking place in the first century church than there are in 21st century America,”. I am assuming from that your original comment was in reference to what you call more “supernatural manifestations”. Am i accurate in thinking that?

Secondly, (and i ask this with humility and earnestly seeking understanding… it is so hard to communicate tone on blogs isn’t it!) if that is the case why is it that you think that there was more supernatural manifestations in the early church than today when the only chapter in the Bible that addresses them is a rebuke of the Corinthians for overuse of such gifts?

Waiting for Jesus

Sam

Thanks for your comment. I agree that labels are important and helpful for helping people understand how we interpret the Bible. I didn’t express it clearly, but my point was that they aren’t the MOST important issue.

There are at least two problems with over-emphasizing our particular “brand” of Christianity. The first is that we tend to read every Scripture through the lens of our label, and can misinterpret what different passage mean. The second is that we are quick to judge others through the lens of their label. I believe God is completely sovereign in salvation and also believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit enumerated in 1 Cor. 121 Corinthians 12
[12:1]Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not
want you to be uninformed. [2]You know that when you were
pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were
led. [3]Therefore I want you to understand that no one
speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is
accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the
Holy Spirit.
[4]Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same
Spirit; [5]and there are varieties of service, but the same
Lord; [6]and there are varieties of activities, but it is
the same God who empowers them all in everyone. [7]To each
is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common
good. [8]For to one is given through the Spirit the
utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of
knowledge according to the same Spirit, [9]to another faith
by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one
Spirit, [10]to another the working of miracles, to another
prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between
spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another
the interpretation of tongues. [11]All these are empowered
by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one
individually as he wills.
[12]For just as the body is one and has many members,
and all the members of the body, though many, are one body,
so it is with Christ. [13]For in one Spirit we were all
baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and
all were made to drink of one Spirit.
[14]For the body does not consist of one member but of
many. [15]If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand,
I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any
less a part of the body. [16]And if the ear should say,
"Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,"
that would not make it any less a part of the body. [17]If
the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of
hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the
sense of smell? [18]But as it is, God arranged the members
in the body, each one of them, as he chose. [19]If all were
a single member, where would the body be? [20]As it is,
there are many parts, yet one body.
[21]The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of
you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of
you." [22]On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem
to be weaker are indispensable, [23]and on those parts of
the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater
honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater
modesty, [24]which our more presentable parts do not
require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater
honor to the part that lacked it, [25]that there may be no
division in the body, but that the members may have the
same care for one another. [26]If one member suffers, all
suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice
together.
[27]Now you are the body of Christ and individually
members of it. [28]And God has appointed in the church
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then
miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating,
and various kinds of tongues. [29]Are all apostles? Are all
prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [30]Do
all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do
all interpret? [31]But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way. (ESV)

. I derive those convictions from Scripture. That happens to put me in the “Reformed Charismatic” camp, but my real desire is to promote the glory of God and the awareness of His presence in the church and the world through His Spirit. Hope that’s helpful.

I post, occasionally, at Tim’s site under the name of “Jabbok”.

I think there is common ground between us that must be emphasized but I would differ with you on this point:

The label we wear isn’t the issue - exalting Jesus Christ is.

Labels ARE important. They let us know what your theology is before the discussion begins. They let us know how you think concerning Scripture and Christ.

I don’t believe our differences are so great that we should begin pronouncing anathema’s but I don’t think we should avoid the differences, or labels, on the notion that Christ is all that matters.

As for Julian’s last question, you should check out the sermon my pastor John Piper preached today on Rom. 15:18-19Romans 15:18-19
[18]For I will not venture to speak of anything except
what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the
Gentiles to obedience--by word and deed, [19]by the power
of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God--so
that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I
have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; (ESV)

. It should be up on the Desiring God website soon. In it he condenses his series on the issue from the early 90s to about 10 minutes. He explains that we should expect miraculous spiritual gifts today, but that such gifts will not necessarily be totally parallel with Christ’s or the apostle’s gifts. It is a great succinct explanation.

God Bless!

Thanks for stopping by.

The best resources I know of are probably D.A. Carson’s “Showing the Spirit” or Wayne Grudem’s “Systematic Theology.”

I’m not sure the gifts in the NT look as different as you suggest. There appear to be more “supernatural manifestations” taking place in the first century church than there are in 21st century America, but it doesn’t appear that everyone moved in the miraculous. Paul told us we were to test prophecies in 1 Thess. 51 Thessalonians 5
[5:1]Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers,
you have no need to have anything written to you. [2]For
you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord
will come like a thief in the night. [3]While people are
saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden
destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a
pregnant woman, and they will not escape. [4]But you are
not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you
like a thief. [5]For you are all children of light,
children of the day. We are not of the night or of the
darkness. [6]So then let us not sleep, as others do, but
let us keep awake and be sober. [7]For those who sleep,
sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at
night. [8]But since we belong to the day, let us be sober,
having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a
helmet the hope of salvation. [9]For God has not destined
us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord
Jesus Christ, [10]who died for us so that whether we are
awake or asleep we might live with him. [11]Therefore
encourage one another and build one another up, just as you
are doing.
[12]We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor
among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
[13]and to esteem them very highly in love because of their
work. Be at peace among yourselves. [14]And we urge you,
brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted,
help the weak, be patient with them all. [15]See that no
one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good
to one another and to everyone. [16]Rejoice always,
[17]pray without ceasing, [18]give thanks in all
circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus
for you. [19]Do not quench the Spirit. [20]Do not despise
prophecies, [21]but test everything; hold fast what is
good. [22]Abstain from every form of evil.
[23]Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you
completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be
kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[24]He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
[25]Brothers, pray for us.
[26]Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss.
[27]I put you under oath before the Lord to have this
letter read to all the brothers.
[28]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. (ESV)

. What would we be testing if there wasn’t a possibility people could be mistaken? He left Trophimus sick in Miletus ( 2 Tim. 4:202 Timothy 4:20
[20]Erastus remained at Corinth, and I left Trophimus,
who was ill, at Miletus. (ESV)

), so obviously he couldn’t heal people “at will.” However there were prophetic words that were from the Lord, and healings that took place. I think we misinterpret Scripture when we insist that miraculous gifts must always take place OR when we insist that they never or rarely take place.

Do you have any resources you would recommend that would explain why it is that the gifts would look somewhat different today than they did in the NT?

Thanks!
Julian